Curse

Davros Uitar · Oct 28, 2008, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I think what Targren is trying to say that everybody keeps missing is that we don't get to see the EULA until we have already paid for the game thus making us HAVE to accept it. We CAN'T deny the EULA even if we read it and think it is ridiculous.

Well most of the "he did this" and "we never did that" stuff just washes over me, but when I got to the quoted statement I found something that didn't sit well with me. It might sound like a plausible approach to the writer but lets break it down.

Sure we don't get to see the EULA prior to playing the game - that is a fair enough statement. How much of that though is actually a problem. Honestly, how many people would read it for s start, or more to thepoint, how many people who did read it would say "hmm - this game doesn't like botting", and decide to heck with it, I am not buying it if I can't bot.

Seeing the EULA up front is not going to change anyone from buying the game. If they are people who want to bot then they don't give a toss about the rules and will buy the game and bot. If they are people who want to abide by the rules they will by it and play by the rules.

The EULA isn't some draconian legislation intended to drive all the fun out of life - it is a simple set of standards that you are expcted to comply with.

Man up ladybug - the problem is not the EULA.

Oh - and the faction reset to 0 is a way better idea than a ban over halloween. Give them Halloween and remove the faction.

DarkNecrid · Oct 28, 2008, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

I think what Targren is trying to say that everybody keeps missing is that we don't get to see the EULA until we have already paid for the game thus making us HAVE to accept it. We CAN'T deny the EULA even if we read it and think it is ridiculous.

Yes you can deny the UA (There is no End User License Agreement, it's just a User Agreement), but by doing so you can't play the game. Also you can see the UA on their website, before you have paid for the game. (just correcting a few things you said)

Sol Deathgard · Oct 28, 2008, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

this portion of the game is so unbalanced and difficult, that a few players may have felt they had no other choice.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I know about 15 savior of the kurzicks, & about 5 savior of the luxons as we speak. I'm about 2 1/2 away from being a savior of the kurzick myself. I even know someone that have 3 accounts all savior of both kurzick & luxon. Funny part of all this is, faction farming is not the only thing these people did during the time they worked on it.

Targren · Oct 28, 2008, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

When you lament that you don't know what is right and what bannable in GW it doesn't mean that the rules are ambiguous, it's just that you're lacking common sense.

I don't know. "Comment sense" would seem to dictate that you won't get banned for doing something EXPLICITLY being stated as being OK by one of their own bloody people. If that's not the case, then the rules are failing in both clarity AND common sense.

If the rules are being changed, they should just SAY so. That's all I'm asking for here. I'm asking for clarification because the original posting didn't even say a damn thing about macros, just bots, so I can't even tell if the G15 and the like are something someone on guru just pulled out of a dark, smelly hole to fill some personal agenda.

Yes, I have a nostromo N52, and I use a macro. I use the red thumb-button to cast my perma-shadow form sequence when running. It's only 3 keypresses, but there's a 1/4 sec delay between them. Does that qualify as botting? What about using it for HFFF for keypresses only? No mouse, no autozone, not even auto-targeting Arne. What about mapping 1 key to semicolon-space to make cleaning up after a raptor farm go faster? (Note: the latter two are examples only, but I was considering the cleanup one)

These are legitimate questions, considering that ANet has said that "it depends" and does NOT take the line of some (misguided IMNSHO) guru members that "all macro users should be banned"

All I want is an official line on it. I want an answer from Anet, not from Guru users with an axe to grind on the subject.

DreamWind · Oct 28, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

When you lament that you don't know what is right and what bannable in GW it doesn't mean that the rules are ambiguous, it's just that you're lacking common sense.

Not necessarily. No amount of common sense could have told us that using a G15 keyboard is a bannable offense. I personally have a G11 and have no idea I could have been banned for using it. The word macro is nowhere in the EULA. Basically the problem is this:

1. Anet's bans people for reasons they didn't know was bannable.

2. Anet unbans said players because they realize their policy is sketchy and their game design for the area isn't the greatest anyways (even saying people HAD to bot lol).

3. Anet comes out and says they don't support 3rd party programs.

4. Players still don't know which 3rd party programs are bannable and which aren't. Many players continue to use 3rd party programs as if nothing ever happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Then there is the final point that I would like to drive home: the rules are not there so that ANet could screw you whichever way the like. They are there to protect every player (you including) from unfair actions of other players. If you are on the right side of the fence, you should support ANet's attempts to make the playing field level for everybody and to banish those who are willing to take shortcuts to success. Online games where bots, 'sploits and cheats are allowed to go rampant are very soon failed games.

Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Necrid

Yes you can deny the UA (There is no End User License Agreement, it's just a User Agreement), but by doing so you can't play the game. Also you can see the UA on their website, before you have paid for the game. (just correcting a few things you said)

You can't play the game but you've already paid for it...thats kind of the whole problem with the EULA in Guild Wars. Yea I suppose if you wanted you could go to the website and read the EULA beforehand, but nobody is going to do that. Hell most people don't even read the EULA as they accept it.

Targren · Oct 28, 2008, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Then there is the final point that I would like to drive home: the rules are not there so that ANet could screw you whichever way the like. They are there to protect every player (you including) from unfair actions of other players. If you are on the right side of the fence, you should support ANet's attempts to make the playing field level for everybody and to banish those who are willing to take shortcuts to success. Online games where bots, 'sploits and cheats are allowed to go rampant are very soon failed games.

(Emphasis mine)

That's exactly my point. I *DO* support making a level playing field. But I do not consider "It depends on what kind of mood the GM is in that day" to be a "level playing field". If they say outright "don't use G15/N52", then I won't use it anymore. Simple as that. I just don't want to hear "That's a nice ranger in Elite Slut Armor you have there... be a shame if something, you know, unfortunate happened to it because Joe GM had a fight with his wife that morning."

Graven · Oct 28, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

meh the game is too easye

Snow Bunny · Oct 28, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

EULA says usage of bots is a bannable offense.

People use bots. Anet should ban them.

Where does it say "sorry a title requires a lot of grind" is an acceptable excuse?

Regina Buenaobra · Oct 28, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

It's because Gaile said that it was OK to use the Logitech G15 keyboard scripts - but that keyboard has scripting functions not only for keypresses but for mouse events, delays, and looping. In short, it's got fully fledged bot-creation software, and people subsequently got banned for botting with it.

But Gaile DID say it was OK.

Hence... this.

This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.

Thargor · Oct 28, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

It is just too bad that the new change to faction gain is going to do nothing to fix this problem. Sure they doubled the faction gain while under the blessing but it is still slower than the HFFF, so there is still no point in grinding this title any other way. They can ban all the bots they want to but it will not stop people from botting or using macros until they make the title more realistic to achieve without using those options.

Orange Milk · Oct 28, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I've no issue for unbanning these botters.

Though I would like the punishment to fit the crime.

Instead of a 2 week ban, their total faction transfered should be reset to "0" or at the least several hunder k lower. Seems to me it's alot more fitting than just a 2 week slap on the wrist.

I mean, if a person botted themselves 500k of Luxon faction, after the ban it's still there, what did the person loose other than 2 weeks of gaming?

That answer is: Nothing

So whats to stop said people from botting in the future? They could still do it, just not as often perhaps to avoid red flags. If they do tooo much, get caught and server another ban, they may just as well feel it was worth it to be banned to gain 500k more faction the easy way.

upier · Oct 28, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.

So if I understand correctly:
1. people who were using ONLY G15s weren't banned since that's not an action that results in a ban (this would be really nice to clear up with all the confusion going on).
2. people that were using REAL bots (as in "a method that otherwise results in having one's account terminated WITHOUT the possibility of it being restored") were banned and now they might end up having their accounts restored.
Or am I wrong?

Thanks!

Painbringer · Oct 28, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Lower the faction caps let everyone shift to the correct tier after implementation of new levels. Destroy the FFF exploit by adding a drop at the luxon group by the mushroom (box of secret luxon plans) that needs to be carried back to the guy who gives out the quest in order to get the reward. End of FFF end of botting in the area. Looking for Faction Farming group 1of 8.

Targren · Oct 28, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.

THAT is all I wanted to know. Thank you, Regina.

english storm · Oct 28, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.

So:

G15 use = no ban?
G15 + bot use = ban?

Or are you saying a G15 is now classified as a bot, hence the ban?

Myself like many others would like classification on this matter to answer the questions once and for all.

Thanks

JASON626 · Oct 28, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

these titles were designed for players playing the game for long duration. Now that anet is making gw2 a newer player will being playing catchup to those who worked on there titles for 2 years. They only have a year now to do what it took some to do in 2 years. If gw1 was going to go on 5 more years (with no future gw2) then no rebalance would really be needed as much, but time is short for the casual player(2-3 hours) a day that just starts.

DreamWind · Oct 28, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.

LoL...the plot thickens!

Painbringer · Oct 28, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Speculation time

IMO they have software that can tell a G-15 macro is in use or any macro device for that matter. (Every move is sent to the server so this is not far fetched) This means that they are able to see a narrowed down list of accounts using a macro device. Now they can narrow this list of accounts using one in a specific area. Now they can narrow it down to hours played in this area or faction points earned etc... So now they have a really narrowed list of accounts. Lastly they can run a report on keystrokes made by these accounts. Looking at the report all they need to do is look for patterns of accounts running the same keystrokes over and over and over.

Or

They have a program that scans all keystrokes made to the server by all accounts. The program looks for patterns. Once a pattern is established that account is on a watch or review. If this is the case it could just be ill fated luck that all of them use a g-15. Humans will stop do something else they will not do the exact same thing over and over like a bot. This is just a guess, but if you have a programmable devise stay away from complicated macros that draw attention to you. And do not do the same thing over and over and over

Lycan Nibbler · Oct 28, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.

The question is now then.. when does a macro become a bot?

1) Is setting up one key to do three in sequence with appropriate time spaces ok (ie for perma sin or to shorten 55 monk setup)?

2) Is using a macro on a key press that makes all the heros attack a target with skill 1, then skill 2 on their toolbar ok (ie SF spike etc).

3) Is flagging using the G15 to do mouse movements allowed?

Or is it combining 2 or more of these (or others I hadnt thought of at this moment).

If you dont want to tell us because you think your bot detection might be compromised, then fair enough, but just tell us that please.

Regina Buenaobra · Oct 28, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

The issue of the G15 keyboard is a completely separate issue and separate discussion from the designers' decision to convert a few players' permanent bans to two-week suspensions. The two topics have nothing to do with each other in this case, and people are just connecting unrelated dots. If the players involved in this just so happened to have used a G15 keyboard, they were not banned because of the G15 -- they were banned for using a bot program.